主持人 赵芮（时任中国社会科学院研究生院副院长）：谢爱伦（Aron Shai）教授是牛津大学圣安东尼学院哲学博士，特拉维夫大学执行校长，长期从事以色列历史和东亚问题研究，出版著作十余本，包括《二十世纪的中国》《中国以色列关系：当前现实和未来展望》《被监押的帝国主义》等。他还在20多个国家的国际学术会议上发表了30余篇论文，分别题为“中国以色列关系”“远东地区的第二次世界大战”“以色列共产党对中华人民共和国的政策”等。

谢爱伦教授身为犹太人，今天给我们带来的“犹太教典籍与中国和犹太文明中的信仰、伦理比较”一定非常精彩，掌声欢迎！

谢爱伦（特拉维夫大学执行校长）：下午好，我希望在座的每一位同学都能听懂我所讲的，我尽量讲得慢一些。我叫谢爱伦，来自以色列特拉维夫大学，是学术研究中心的主席。我非常高兴来到这里，看到这座新的校园。在过去的15～17年，我们一直和中国社会科学院保持着互动交流，同时我们也对交流合作事项达成共识。自1963年起，到现在，我已经在中国工作了49年了。为什么我会来中国工作呢？因为我对20世纪60年代的中国特别感兴趣，特别是当我看到中国走出一条具有中国特色的道路，不是苏维埃式的道路，也不是美国式的道路。我认为中国实际上已经取得了巨大的成就。我一直在关注这之后中国的历史，我在中国出版了几本书，书中从1840年的鸦片战争到不同时期的掌权者，都有涉及。当我们回溯1840年之后的70多年的历史，它包含一系列内容，如鸦片战争的结束、南京不平等条约的签订，当然还有主要发生在20世纪30年代的事件。我主要关注了抗日战争、第二次世界大战以及外国企业在中国的命运。以一个客人或一个外国人的角度来观察，中国正有效地进行着全方位的转变，从非常动荡的时期，一种几乎完全在帝国权力或帝国主义压迫之下的状态，到拥有令人惊叹的民族自信心和自豪感。

现在我们可以看到，中国和以前相比有了很大的不同。我认为中国代表着一种新生力量，特别是当来到这样一个校园，看到它的发展，真是不可思议。尽管这样，作为老朋友，我仍然看到中国还有不足之处，有时我也会批评中国，就像我批评我的国家以色列一样，这就是你们所说的真正的友谊。今天我想简单介绍一下我在中国出版的一本书，是汉语版的；同时在英国也有英译本，另外还在以色列得到出版，这本书是有关张学良的。自从我起笔的时候，就被这个人深深吸引了。当我决定写另一本书的时候，自认为不会有什么创新，我只能跟随张学良，因为我是在研究中偶遇他的。所以开始时，我只是想把有关张学良的内容写成小说形式，但后来事实是，它变成了有关张学良的历史读物。原因就是我敢于写这样一本书，而且我得到了同事张平的大力支持。大多数时候，以客人或外国人的身份或视角更容易发现一些当地人、本国人所注意不到、理解不了的事情。因为中国人民非常善良，一些观点没有被提到，比如批评的；另外，在描写张学良的书中，中国作者们一般也不会提到他的浪漫情怀以及爱情观。我对他，不仅从政治角度来考虑，而且我会继续深入地去理解这个男人的雄心、抱负以及他的爱情等。因此，我们简单地谈谈这本书，然后我会继续另一个完全不同的话题，比如来谈一下中以两国的关系，我知道你们中很多人是研究两国关系的。

张学良的故事，大家基本都熟悉。尽管他是1901年出生，距今已100多年，我们仍称他为少帅。可以说，他是一个充满矛盾的人，在他年迈时仍像一个顽童一样。他对鸦片上瘾，但是如果有人问他怎么在这样一个文明的社会还吸食鸦片呢，他却也能以特殊的方式戒掉它；他同情法西斯主义，却又和共产主义保持着密切的合作；他喜欢女人，经常沉溺于女色，但是一生中他只服从于一位美丽的女子，那就是蒋介石的妻子——宋美龄。张学良与宋美龄之间的关系并没有在中国出版的书中被全面地提到过，所以中国读者们错失了一些精彩的观点，现在你们能够读到这方面的内容了。我不会说这是一个爱情故事，但它或许是一种柏拉图式的精神之恋，也或许是一种更深层次的爱。人们可以通过张学良一生的故事，来看待中国整个20世纪的历史。这两段历史是交织在一起的，成为现代历史的一部分。1936年著名的西安事变，我不会再重复提到了，我想在座的同学们都知道这段历史。但是我对这段历史为什么在1936年12月发生并没有更深入的研究。我知道对于这个事件有不同叙述性的理论和观点提出，但是我个人认为张学良想要采取并决定实施抗日政策，他试图说服那些掌权者做出改变。然而不幸的是，当他逮捕蒋介石后，事实上他陷入了困境中，因为如果想让蒋介石参与抗日，他就不得不把蒋介石放掉，因为他不能破坏领袖在将士们心中的形象。当你们回溯这12天，你们可以看到宋美龄在这场事变中所扮演的角色，是有变化、有动摇的。在那个关键时刻，张学良决定牺牲自己，放走蒋介石。然而事实是蒋介石最后改变了共同抗日的政策。

为什么西安事变会被中国人所熟知呢？我想人们或多或少在道德上认为事情应当在此处终结，而事实上这个男人继续生活了几十年，他以一种强硬的方式在中国历史中扮演着他独有的角色。提到情感，首先就是爱情，我认为张学良的情感是被一种非常奇怪的方式，甚至是一种超自然的方式所影响着。在狱中，他和他的长官、对手的妻子宋美龄依然保持着联系，与蒋经国，也是如此。蒋经国后来是台湾政权所谓的第三任“总统”，张学良在台湾被监禁了很多年。我对此了解得并不多，但我敢说他是一个基督教原教旨主义者，其思想中还有些佛教成分。一些问题和他的爱好有关，比如明朝历史，所有这些都是受宋美龄影响。这些内容的确是事实，而非小说杜撰。所以我不会仅仅聚焦于政治或者那些与政治非常相关的问题，而且也聚焦于这个人，以及他所处的台湾这几十年的历史。我还想提一点，这点也受到宋美龄的影响，即有关张学良特别私人的一个问题，也就是他是否要继续与于凤至的婚姻以及是否要迎娶赵一荻。这是非常有趣的，这样一个强悍的人，也有柔情脆弱的一面。人们简单地说他是一个法西斯主义者，因为他去过意大利，且与墨索里尼的女儿关系很好，他们曾在北京见过面。当他从欧洲回来，他依然在鼓吹法西斯是管理中国最佳的方式，但最终他还是与共产党合作。如果稍后有关于此的问题，我很乐意与这本书联系起来。这里我只想说这虽然是一个非常中国化的故事，但这里却有非常普遍和人性化的元素，让很多人感兴趣。

我发现很多描写张学良的著作或多或少都缺乏想象力并日益受到限制，且不够深入。这是一个非常复杂的国际化问题。我能做到的原因是，第一，我是一个局外人，能够远距离地看待这一问题。有时候我想象着自己在画油画。当你从远距离审视时，就能够很好地理解。第二，我有很多在美国哥伦比亚大学收集到的关于张学良的著述的中国档案，这些档案还没有被用过。第三，因为我敢于做一些别人几乎不敢做的事。

现在，我们来谈论另外一个主题，即中国与以色列的关系。这些年我一直在研究这个。我想提一些大家比较感兴趣的观点。事实上很多观点，我认为可以促进两国关系。首先，是以色列应该采取的策略，当我们评价中国未来的前景时，我们发现在专业学术著作上两种截然相反的观点，即悲观的和乐观的观点。悲观的观点，我不会提太多，毕竟大家都不乐意听到。但是它们在很大程度上代表了一种世界对中国的看法。中国已经到了一个节点，一个门槛上，因此它很难在旧路上继续前行。我认为有些书中的看法是不正确的，但它们也出版了，这些书中甚至谈到中国即将崩溃的言论。这本书在12～13年前就已出版，并且现在还在再版中。但我相信这种观点是错误的。尽管他们提到并试着分析中国的问题，但我认为他们关注了太多的消极点，而不是积极正面的点。

事实上，我们看到更多的学者依然保持积极乐观的态度。分析中国经济前景的人们，他们看到了经济上的成就，看到了2008年的奥运会和2010年的上海世博会。事实上还有很多方面也取得了令人振奋的突破。在许多领域，可以说中国在一定程度上是先驱者，中国尝试发展一些在过去30～35年里前所未有的东西。根据这些乐观的中国观察家，中国会实现一个美好的未来，他们也相信中国会走得更远。现在的问题是我刚刚提到的这个简短的观点，他们将要做什么？他们之间有什么相关性？对于中以关系，我想说他们是有相关性的。如果中国的故事是一个成功的故事，那我们应该做些什么呢？思考一下这个问题吧，并且回看两国的关系和我们目前所做的事是有一些微小不同的。我的意思是犹太人或以色列人应当更少地运用传统的评价方法。这能够改变对中国的看法，会使其变得更加积极。这是非常正确的。许多历史学家和政治学家，他们常常会争论美国不仅在地理优势上正在衰落，还表现在经济、政治和军事上。如果我们观察一些客观的因素和经济方面，比如GDP、外汇储备、储蓄率等，它就能够评价出来了。当我们在讨论美国和中国的时候，我们是在讨论一方的力量相对削弱，而一方在增强，这是我的观点，然而我不是在走极端，也不是在宣扬美国的垮塌。人们应当是谦虚的。我看到美国民主和西方世界出现了相当多的问题，这些问题交织在一起。当历史学家看待某一现象时，他们应该记住并分析。当你们看到某些现象时，你们不需要完全理解，怎么看都行。例如，在20世纪20～30年代没有人会说英国在走下坡路。当趋势越来越明显的时候，人们想到去研究其衰落的源头，即第一次世界大战的爆发。换一种方式来说，我们看到美国的实力是在日益衰退，但是我们不能完全下定论，要看其后续的状况。

2011年和2012年，美国的经济遭遇了严重的问题，国内、国外不断上升的债务导致了巨大的预算赤字，当然还包括我们都知道的巴基斯坦、阿富汗的一些其他问题。因此，我们通过讨论来描述这些现象。例如，我们想到在2011年9月中旬美国所处的境遇，只是一个例子，意大利、西班牙、希腊、葡萄牙和匈牙利等欧洲国家希望中国出手来购买100亿欧元债券，这是对它们的援助。换句话说，中国通过这件事情接管美国扮演的传统角色，即重整经济来拯救我们的世界。在10年、20年抑或几十年前，谁能预测到这种现实？所以在这里我们谈论的是软实力，很多处理国际关系的人讨论的是硬实力，诸如坦克、飞机、航母以及军队的数量等。而我讨论的是软实力。提到软实力，我想说文化外交，在这方面中国是很强大的，我所描述的公共外交、金融外交（国家间的）也是相当重要的。我想并不是所有的人都明白在处理国际事务时中国所使用的方式，特别是当北京在谈论和平崛起与和谐政策的执行时。我认为这是很重要的，它预示着将来会发生什么。在我的脑中，美国是阻挡不了中国作为新型经济崛起的事实的，同样也阻挡不了外交和军事等方面的发展。中国领导人在南美、沙特阿拉伯、伊朗和许多其他地方进行访问，但是极少去中东。我认为我们应该对其中的一些事件进行重新思考，比如以色列和中国之间的关系，看起来是新鲜的。以色列是1950年来最早识别BRC的国家之一。现在这对以色列来说，迈出了很大胆的一步。因为那时候以色列新国家只成立了两年，我们是在1948年5月取得了独立。这个时期刚好是“冷战”的中期，在很大程度上这是一种抵抗美国的做法。领导者和许多其他人认为以色列应该承认中国。这是基于两个犹太教的因素而做的。其中一个是没有本身事件那么重要的一个因素。中国有2万～3万犹太人，更多的是来自欧洲的难民，他们主要居住在上海或其他地方，北京也有。有一个很小的犹太人团体，他们想把犹太人带回家，带回祖国。但是另一个重要的方面是，班古里昂相信我们是社会主义国家，但是不属于苏维埃集团。我想他和许多人一样钦佩中国的过去，所以这是原因之一。现在变化出现了，如果你继续往下看，你就会变得不太理解了。因为在1950年6月，朝鲜战争爆发。此时班古里昂和当局政府认为以色列站到联合国的一边，是非常重要的。因为之前以色列花费了很多努力去成为联合国的成员。因此，以色列政府认为它们应当积极参加联合国的活动。虽然在表面上这解释成是和中国进行对抗，但实际上并没有做出对抗中国的举动。但是之后和联合国做的事情，我们能说承认的益处在消失吗？朝鲜战争之后，出现一个著名人物大卫·汉克，他被任命为帕尔马的大使。在他任职期间，他想做一些事情来促进帕尔马和中国的关系。事实上，是和他的同事——杨宗敏，时任中国驻帕尔马的大使。他发起了一场对话，见到了真正的大使，见到了周恩来。结果中国和以色列之间有了商业使命，这对两国关系的重塑赋予了极大的希望。没有发生的原因就是来自美国的压力，美国阻碍以色列进行这一尝试。我们处在巨大的压力之下，稍后发生的事也来自这一压力。中国在1955年万隆会议上做了认真的准备。在1955年的万隆会议之前有一个预备级会议。因此，我想在决策者之间，有一些其他的想法即如果和以色列合作，那么将失去第三世界和阿拉伯世界的国家。因此，在这一方面，双方的关系变得更冷了。稍后我们讨论在长期的历史过程中，双方没有外交关系的情况。我在思考两国的共产主义者，换句话说，以色列共产主义者和中国共产主义者是否会有对话，但还不足够在中以两国人民之间搭起一座桥梁。

真正改变这一状况的事件是1979的中越战争。几乎没有什么人知道这一战争。但是在这场战争中，中国想向苏联寻求更多的军事力量——武器装备。但却不能得到苏联的援助，因为当时中国和苏联不和。反常的是，中国可以向以色列寻求军事装备。因为在1967年和1973年两场战争中，以色列通过战胜叙利亚和埃及已经获得大量苏联的武器。我们升级了坦克、57式大炮等。非常隐蔽的是，中国和以色列有了联系。以色列想保持这种关系，但又不愿意被称为同盟。但很多事都在继续，我认为这是第二次大的贡献。当然国际形势正在走向更加明朗化，因为总统是犹太人，我想这至少会成为新纪元的开端。因此，1992年人们开始谈论两国正式建交事项，事实上，中国和以色列已经有了长达20多年的外交关系。其间，出现了两大事件，分别是在2000年和2005年。2000年危机是我称作的FANKONG惨败。FANKONG是我们研制的，中国政府感兴趣想要购买的一种侦查战机。我们向中国政府承诺出售给中国一批。这是很实际的考虑因素。一切合同都已签订了，江泽民主席来到以色列，他再三承诺交易会顺利进行。然而，美国开始进行阻挠，交易不得不中断。以色列没有勇敢地坚持和中国的合约，这导致了两国关系的恶化。2005年的危机也如此，我们试图将“哈比”无人战机卖给中国，但又一次受到了美国的阻挠。这里我想到非常重要的一些事情，当我们在谈论中国和以色列时，我们经常遇到一个“三角关系”，即美国、中国、以色列。对以色列来说，中国和美国就像一对父母，或两个成年人在不断争吵，以色列就夹在二者之间。这是一个很微妙的问题。对于以色列的防御来说，美国是非常重要且相关的因素。因为不仅仅是做出的声明，而且在非常关键的时刻，美国能给予以色列帮助。比如1973年，当我们需要武器的时候，直接就拥有了。事实上不仅有我提到的飞机和火车，还有联合战机和以色列需要的材料。当中国成为我们的朋友时，中国是愚蠢的吗？没有在我们需要的时候站出来，拯救以色列，像美国已经做的那样。但是从另一个角度来说，美国使得我们很难建立起完美的外交关系，正如它们所说的，在这两次惨败之后，两次危机之后，美国主要想控制我们对中国的出口。当我见到我们的总理时，他来到中国和我简单地聊中国人和中国的事务，我总是讲这个故事。他对我说：“我们甚至不能卖给中国人一支钢笔，因为如果我们卖给中国人钢笔了，美国就会过来说你知道他们会把钢笔融化，制造飞机的。因此，你必须小心，不能把钢笔卖给美国人或中国人。”因此，他们用这样的方式来控制，我们也认识得到。总的来说，我认为两国的关系不断得到提升。在上一次战争之后，我们看到了巨大的变化。我们参加了在成都执行的喷气式飞机的建造，当然，中国领导人也到达以色列，会见了我们的总统和首相。同样，我总想提到的一点是2012年8月中国的战舰、补给舰已经驶离青岛，到达海法港口。这是以色列值得庆幸的一个历史性事件。目前有两件事，主要的是，中国和以色列有不同的看法。我认为我们正在对这个事达成共识。第一件事是有关伊朗的。我想让你们知道在以色列，这和二战和大屠杀比起来，就像外伤一样。因此，当伊朗说以色列没有权力存在的时候，或者伊朗想要毁灭以色列这个国度的时候，一种恐惧就出现了。以色列不想要伊朗拥有核能力。以色列采取一切办法去阻止这样的工程。然而中国则持有更加中立的态度，评价也非常不同。首先，中国认为伊朗人没有携带炸弹、原子弹；其次认为伊朗人不会用炸弹、原子弹。如果他们使用，那么对他们自己来说将是巨大的灾难，因为以色列是一个很小的国家，而且有很多外来人口，要是伊朗炸了以色列，那么他们杀死的更多的是巴基斯坦人和阿拉伯人。他们一定要特别谨慎，这是很理性的，很有必要的。然而，提到以色列我们仍会想到很多薄弱的地方以及害怕被摧毁的恐惧。为了讲清楚这个，我想说每一个国家，就像每一个普通的人一样，都有弱点或劣势。比如提到中国就会想到日本，在中国谈论日本，日本已不仅仅是一个国家了。它不是危地马拉、哥斯达黎加、阿根廷、荷兰，而是和中国有着诸多历史方面的密切联系的国家。因此，我想对研究国际关系的同学们说，态度、心理和经历同样占有很重要的位置。尽管我认为中国和以色列的关系正变得更加密切，但毕竟我们没有亲眼见证。

另一件事是有关叙利亚的。这是一个非常敏感和复杂的问题。某种程度上我们可以说我们不关心叙利亚每天被杀害的人有多少。如果你们看电视，你会看到每天至少有100～200名叙利亚人被杀害。这和我们没有关系。在另一程度上，我们很幸运，因为以色列和叙利亚的边境线在过去的40年里非常稳定。但是学者们和作为犹太人的我们深深地相信这不是事情的关键。我认为，在国际关系中，我们面临着一种新的情形，整个世界中的国家几乎已没有了边界。在二战中，人们可以被杀。德国人可以杀掉犹太人、吉普赛人或同性恋者等。这和国家没有什么关系。今天，在70年之后，情境不同了。中国的一些研究者的观点是，国际团体不能介入，让叙利亚人民，让叙利亚自己决定它的命运。这是理性的，是易于理解的。我不会说这是奇怪的，但我会说这是站不住脚的理论，是不合理的，原因是国际团体最终不会接受。我们要记住的是人民要参与一个国家将要发生的事，这是外交中的一个巨大改变。因此，我想讲的最后一个问题是经济合作。

关于经济合作，我想讲一个中国的例子。中国已经收购大量以色列公司来生产杀虫剂，大约占60%。这也许是我们期待的一件事情。所以总的来说，我的观点基于我之前所讲的，我认为中国应该更多地加入国际事务，更多地参与到中东的危机中，我们应该让中国更加了解我们的立场和态度，当我们遭到巴基斯坦的轰炸，当我们恐惧毁灭或各种各样的问题时。但我想同时我们也应有其他方面的合作，比如学术方面，就像现在我们聚在一起进行学术交流一样。

我的演讲到此结束，谢谢大家！

主持人 邱伟立（时任中国社会科学院研究生院外事处处长）：谢爱伦教授在百忙之中来到我院，为大家奉上了一场内容非常精彩的演讲，让我们用热烈的掌声对他表示感谢！

原文

Aron Shai：Good afternoon，I hope everybody will understand me，I’ll try to speak slowly. So my name is Aron Shaia，I’m the rector，the head of problem of academic handle Tel Aviv University. And I’m very，very pleased to be here to see this new campus. We are in touch with the CASS for past fifteen or seventeen years. We are also an agreement for collaboration and cooperation. I’ve been working on the China in the past 49 years，so since 1963，because I was very much excited about China in the 1960s when I saw China more symbolize a special way，not the Soviet way，nor the American way. And I thought China indeed had a lot to contribute. I was following things here in the history of China. In fact，I published several books on China，and covered the periods of Opium War，1842，to the presidents in different sequences. In fact，when one looks at the 7 decades from 1842 onwards，it encompasses a very interesting experience：the end of Opium War，the Nanjing Unequal Treaty. And of course very experiences which cover mainly the 1930s，I worked on the Sino-Japanese War，and then the Second World War and then on the fate of foreign firms in China. This is a book which came out in English，but also came out here at CASS who published that some years ago. Now it’s interesting to notice，I say as a guest，as a foreigner，that China has effect moved the whole circle dynamically from a situation of almost total imperial subjugation，imperial subjugation being under imperial power and imperialism to a very impressive self-assertiveness and pride.

Now we look at China very differently，and I think China symbolizes something very new，especially when you come to such a campus，and you see the development.It is simply unbelievable. Even though I am friend of China，I know some the disadvantages and I can also be critical of China sometimes like I am critical of my state Israel. And this is really true friendship when you say things which are as they are. And today I would like to mention very briefly a book which I published here in China，in Chinese. And I also published it in English in Britain，in Israel and in Hebrew，about Zhang Xueliang. I was very intrigued by the person since I also wrote two novels. When I thought of writing another novel，I said I should not really invent anything. I can simply follow Zhang Xueliang because I encounter the man in my research. And I was initially I thought of maybe to write something as a novel，as a fiction，but in fact，it turned to be a history book on the man. Now the reason that I thought I could dare write such a book and I got a very strong support and assistance from my colleague Zhangping was because very often，a guest，a foreigner，can look at things and discover things that people in the nation itself cannot always understand. And also since the Chinese are very nice people，some points were not mentioned，critical points. Some points which have to do with romanticism or love，also you never mentioned in your books on Zhang Xueliang. I look at this question as a political question，but also I try to down in and understand the man，his desires，his ambitions，his love and so on. So we say just a few words about this book，and then I will continue deal with something totally different，such as the question of Sino-Israel relations for those of you who deal with the history of two countries.

Now the story of Zhang Xueliang is well known here. We are talking about the Young Marshal，who was called Young Marshal even when he was 100 years old age. And he was born in 1901. And in fact it’s a man of paradoxes in dilemmas. It’s a man who was young when he was old. I mean Young Marshal when he was old. He was addictive to opium，but he knew if one can say how to smoke it in sort of civilized way，so in the way he controled himself he managed to conduct his affairs as well. He sympathized with Fascism，yet he cooperated with communism. And in fact，he liked women （He is a womanizer）. But he in face submited to only one beautiful woman，Chiang Kai-shek’s wife，Soong Mei-Ling. The relations between two have not been revealed in a full way in the books published in China. So I think you missed great deal，but now you are able to read about it. This is a story of I wouldn’t say love，but maybe platonic love，or maybe something even deeper than simple love on the whole. Now we can follow the history of the 20th century of China through the story of this man. The two stories are intertwined and this is a part of modern history on the whole. Now the Xi’an Incident which you know of 1936，I will not repeat it because I assume you know it，but I think that not enough research，deep research was conducted on the question of why during this 12 14 days in December，1936. Why was this whole operation taken. And I know there are different narrative，different theories concerning this event. But certainly I think Zhang Xueliang want to adopt and determine anti-Japanese policy and convince the leaders that effect the policy should be changed. Unfortunately，however，for him when he captured Chiang Kai-shek，I mean Jiang Jieshi，but I use southern name of Chiang Kai-shek. When he captured the man，he in fact was put him in a very difficult situation，because if he wanted Chiang Kai-shek to fight the Japanese，he had to release him because he could not hurt or damage his charisma. Now when you follow the 12 days，and you see the role of Soong Mei-Ling and you see the different，the dynamics there. You turn to understand at the certain moment he decided to actually sacrifice himself and let the leader go and was the certain understanding in fact by that Chiang Kai-shek would change his policy towards fighting the Japanese.

But why the story of 1936 is well-known in China，I think that people have missed by the moral story will end there. While in fact the man continues to live for many decades. And in a very strong way he actually plays a role in the history of China. As far his emotions，love is concerned. I think the Zhang was almost in a very strange way influenced almost in a supernatural way. He was influenced by Soong Mei-Ling who actually conducted and told him to do and why he was home arrested. And in prison he is still kept in touch with her who was the wife of his commander and rival. And also with Jiang Jingguo，later on the president of the so called the Taiwan regime. And later on even after the third president of Taiwan came to power. He remains there in prison for so many ages. So what I will not well too much of that，but I would say that he was a Christian fundamentalism. And some of his thoughts are the Buddhist. Some questions are related to his hobbies，such as Ming history，all these were influenced by her，by this woman. And there is certainly a novel here，the true story but a novel. I do not concentrate only on the political side and the various questions related to the politics but also to the man and to the history of decades in Taiwan. I would just mention one point，actually Soong actually influence also，very personal and private question relating to him. As to whether he should continue to marry to Yu Fengzi. Or whether indeed he should marry to Zhang Yidi. It’s a very interesting thing because in fact we are talking about a very strong man but a weak man. A man who sympathizes the thing with Fascism. Because he went to Italy and he was in a good relations with Mussolini’ daughter whom he met here in Beijing. When he came back from Europe，he was still talking about Fascism as the best way to conduct China. But eventually he joined in and he collaborated with communist party. So if afterwards there are any questions，I would like to relate to this book. But I just want to mention this and to tell you even though this is a very Chinese story there are some elements which are universal，which are human and which can interest many people.

I found that the books written about him were very sort of pedestrian and very restrictive day by day but did not penetrated enough. The various international questions which were very complicated. And the reasons I could do it I’d say A：because I looked at the problem from a far. And sometimes I am with painting，oil painting：when you look at it from a far you can understand it a little bit better. Secondly because I had some documents which many Chinese who wrote about him never use. These documents were in Columbia University in the United States. And thirdly simply because I was daring to do something that very few have done.

Now I doubt recently and I move to totally different subject. That is to talk about the Chinese-Israel relations. I’ve been involving doing this for many years. And I want to relate to a few points which I think can interest you. And I also in fact have some ideas which I think can promote the relations and help both sides. But of course I will first suggest the steps we should be taken by the Israel side. So first of all，when we assess China’s future prospects，we find in the literature two contradictory views. I mean in professionally academic literature，we find pessimistic view and optimistic one. The pessimistic view，I will not well too much on. It is less pleasant to hear. But of course they are views in the world，which say to a great extent，China has reached a certain point，a certain threshold. And therefore it will be a difficult for it to continue in the same way. And of course there were books which I don’t think they are correct. But they are well published，publications even talked about the coming collapse of China. This book came out 13 years ago and they continue. But I think they proved incorrect. Even though they mentioned and tried to analyze some problems in China，but I think the problems with pessimistic views were that they put too much on the negative points，and not enough on the positive points.

Indeed when we look at theoptimistic side which is still prevailing and the optimistic approach maintain by most scholars. People who analyze the economy prospects of China. They see the achievements. They see the Olympic Games of 2008 and the Expo Exhibition of 2010 in Shanghai. In fact，many others as promising breakthrough and this really is true in many other fields where China is the pioneer to a great extent，and manages to do some unprecedented things in past 30 or 35 years. According to these optimistic China watchers，future prospects are guaranteed. And they believe that China will reach very very far. Now the question is what has this very brief point that I have mentioned，what they have got to do and what relevance do they have？And to Sino-Israeli relations，I would rather argue that they are relevant. Because indeed if we plan in Israel，if we plan ahead and if indeed the China’s story is a successful story，what in fact we need to do？It is to take it into consideration and look at the relations slightly differently from what we have done up to now. And what I mean by that is Jew or Israel should cooperate a less traditional assessment. This towards China and change the course to a pro more active attitude. This is particularly true. Many other historians and political scientists argue that United States is in a geographical decline and also in politically，economically and military. Now in the America they don’t like to hear it. But I think if indeed we look some objective factors and economic otherwise. When we look at GDP，when we looked at the foreign reserves，when you look at the rate of saving，and when we looked at the involvement outside the boundaries of the United States，It can evaluate. Again these are regulations. I don’t want to mention this. When we talk about China and America，we are talking about one power which is in decline，and the other one which is going up China. This is my view. However，I don’t want to take it to such an extreme and I don’t talk about the collapse of the United States. So people should be very moderate here. However I see that the American democracy and the western world have got quite a few problems，these problems might be certain intertwined. When historians looked at things，they have to remember when you look at some certain phenomenon；you don’t always understand it. Anyway when you look at，for example，the Britain in the 1920s or 1930s，no one would have said that Britain is in its decline. When the trend becomes more apparent，people want to find the source of the decline. That is in the First World War. So in another way we see power of the United States is declining，but we cannot make a conclusion and we should look at the followings.

Now indeed in 2011 and 2012，it is quite clear that the United States is in increasingly serious problems in its economy. Huge budget deficit led by massive increase in deb at both home and abroad，of course involved the place like Pakistan and Afghanistan and other problems which we all know. So we would like to illustrate this by talking，for example，reminding ourselves that come through the situation of America in mid-September 2011，China was asked by Italy，just an example. This is following by Spain，Greece，Portugal and Hungary to buy of its 10 billion of Euros of bonds and that help to them，in other words the Italian market as well as the global market. In other words China in a way paved the road towards in fact we say took over the role of the United States which played in traditional way as the economic saver our world. Who could image such a reality a decade，two decades or several decades ago？So we talk here about soft power. Many people dealing with international relations deal with hard power. Such as the number of tanks，the number of air planes，the number of airplanes carriers and the armies and so on. But I talked about soft power，by soft power，I mean the cultural diplomacy. And here in China is quite powerful，the public diplomacy and financial diplomacy internationally as I described are quite important. And I don’t think many people in the world actually understand the way that China si working in international affairs. Especially when Beijing talked about the peaceful rising and the implantation of policy of harmony.This is，important，I think. And it is quite indicative as what is going to happen. Beijing has been intimidating in a way not willing or not directly the United States，Washington by the mere fact that it can play a role that before the United States. And the United State cannot，in my mind actually stop China from becoming much more active and translating its economic and commercial power to something much more that is diplomatic，political and so on. We see Chinese president in South America，in Saudi Arabia，in Iran and many other places，but less so in middle east. But in view of the situation，I think we should rethink the relations with China and look it at fresh. In fact Israel is one of the very first countries to recognize the BRC in generally 1950. Now this was a very daring step Israel to. Because Israel was only two years old，remember that we gain our independence in May 1948. And this was in the mid of the Cold War. And it was the way against to the United States in a great extent. Still the leader and many others actually had no doubt that Israel should recognize China. And this had been done on the basis of two Jew elements：one is the fact it is a less important thing but it was there. There were about 25 to 30 thousand Jews in China，most of the refugees were from Europe，and most of them mainly came to Shanghai but some other places as well，and so in Beijing. And there was a tiny Jewish community and the idea in 48 was to bring the Jews back home，to the motherland，so to speak. But the other aspect which was very important was that Ben-Gurion believed we were the socialist country，but not belong to Soviet bloc. And I think that he and many others admires the past that China has taken. So this is the reason for your. Now a change was taken，if you mind afterwards，you will be less understood. Because on June 1950 the war of Korean was broke out. When this war was break out，the Ben-Gurion and the government thought that it was important that Israel would take part in the UN，because we have made many efforts to become member of UN. Therefore the Israel government thought that was important to take part in the active operation of the UN. And This was interpreted a sort of anti-Chinese，but there was nothing direct anti-Chinese move. But really doing something together with the UN. And shall we say that the benefit of recognition should diluted or disappeared？But after the Korean War，we have a very interesting person by name of David Hank，he asked to be the ambassador in Perma. When he was an ambassador in Perma，he wanted to effect to have good relations though Perma with China. And indeed，with his collegue，Yao Zhongming，who was the Chinese ambassador in Perma. He conducted a conversation and he also met the really ambassador，met Zhou Enlai. As a result，there was a commercial mission which went to Chinese and Israeli commercial mission and there was a great hope that in fact the relation would be renewed.The reason that this is not happened was that in face there was pressure from the United States，on Israel not to continue this attempt. We are under the very strong pressure and I should show that this happened again soon later on. On the Chinese side，there was serious preparation towards what we called the Bandung Conference of 1955 that the window was much smaller because already at Bogor，Bogor is also in Indonesia，there was a preparatory conference to prepare for the Bandung Conference in 55. So I think among the decision makers，there were some second thoughts that if you work along with Israel you might lose the third world or the Arabic world. So the two sides were much cooler in this respect. In fact，we are talking later on none relations for a very long period of time. I look into the question of whether indeed the two communist party. In other words Israel communist party and China communist party whether perhaps they haved conversations，but this was not enough to create a bridge between Israel and China.

What actually changed the situation was the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979. Very few people of the world know about this war. But during this war，China looked for more military materiel，armed union and hard work from a Soviet type. And for this China could not get from the Soviet Union. Because of conflicts within the Soviet Union. Paradoxically，China could get such a materiel from Israel because in the course of 67 war and 73 war，we acquired a lot of Soviet arms by winning the war from Syria and Egypt. And we upgraded let’s say the tank，the 57 cannon and etc. And very secretively，there were contacts between Israel and China. Israel would keep and not allow to say there was an alien. But a lot went on and I think this was the second contribution. Of course the atmosphere internationally was much brighter because president came to Jews and there were，at least I think was the beginning of a new era. And therefore in 1992，one can talked about the establishment of diplomatic relations in fact we have more than 20 years of diplomatic relations between the two countries. There were two crisis between Chine and Israel. One was in 2000. And the other was in 2005. The 2000 crisis was a part of the what I called the Fangkong fiasco. Fangkong in fact was the reconnaissance plane which we established and the Chinese government were interested to buy. We promise the Chinese government to actually sell a few pieces to China. This was the very sophisticated element. And in fact everything was signed and Mr. Jiang Zeming came to Israel and he was strongly again and again promising the transaction will go through. However，the Americans interfered and the transaction did not go through. And Israel did not stand up to its contract with China and this caused a great crisis between the two nations and so was the case later on in 2005 when in fact we try to sell the Harpy，this is a unmanned airplane to China. And again there was an intervention of the United States. Here I come to something very important. In fact when we are talking about Israel and China，we are talking about a triangle，of the United States，China，and Israel. As far as Israel concern，it’s like a two parents，or two adults having a quarrel and cannot come to terms And Israel is gotten in between. This is a very delicate problem. Now one should bring into consideration the fact that the United States is very relevant and important for the defense of Israel because there are not only statements that are made. But the United States comes to Israel as an assistant at a very crucial moment for example in 1973 where we needed arms and immediately have them. In fact through a sort of airplane and train I would say，you know，by sort of combo airplane and a lot of materials come to Israel. So in a way there is a feeling of Israel. Despite what I have said about possible decline that what we rely on the United States. When China is a friend，China is a loopy？position certainly doesn’t want the moment to come and say we are going to save Israel whatever happens and do something like the American have done. But on the other hand，the American make it very difficult for us to actually carry on with perfect relations because as they said after these two fiascos，after these two crisis，the American actually try to control our exports mainly to China. And I always tell the story that when I went to meet our prime minister，who came to China to brief me about Chinese or Chinese affairs. He told me you know we could not even sell the Chinese a pen because if we say sell the Chinese a pen，the American will come and say you know out of they can melt it and make airplanes. So you have to be very careful not to sell pens to the American （Chinese）. So in a way they control and this is there and something we have to recognize. Now on the whole，I think that the relations between two countries have been improved and certainly by last year，we see a dynamic change for example，we are talking about improvements as far as visit，for example our Minister of Defense came to this country. And this was after more than a decade and there was nothing like that happen. We participant in attended concerning the establishment of executive jet planes factory in Chengdu. And of course Chinese chief and staff arrived in Israel to meet our President and Prime Minister. Also I would like to mention always that in last August that Chinese battle ship，supply ship has departure from Qingdao and visited Haifa port. And this was a historical event which Israeli appreciated very very much. What I would like to say ever we do not see eye to eye in all issues，and there are two issues，main issues today that China and Israel look at differently. I think we are progressing. And the two issues are Iran. And in the case of Iran，I want you to understand that in Israel the reason said that the traumatic experience，you all know，concerning the WWII and the Holocaust. So there is a fear especially when Iran says Israel has no right to exist or that he is willing to destroy the state of Israel. There is a very strong fear and Israel does not want Iran to have nuclear capability. And Israel takes all the steps possible in order to stop such a project. While，China is taking a much more moderate view and the asses are thought differently. First of all，we’d say the official Chinese policy that the Iranian are not closed to having a bomb，atomic bomb. And secondly they would not use it. And if they use it，there will be a disaster for them because Israel is a very tiny. And there are other population and should Iranian bombed Israel，they would actually killed many Palestinians and Arabs，and they must be very careful. This might be very rational. Jew，reasonable. However one should realize that we have a certain weak points when we talk about the existence of Israel and the fear that it might be destroyed. In order to illustrate this，I would say that every nation，like every human being，has got some weak points. For example，when we talk China about Japan. Japan is not just another country when we talk about it in China. It is not Guatemala，or Costa Rica or Argentina or Holland. There are a lot of associations with historic matters. And therefore the attitude and I say to those of you who have studies international relations the psychological and traumatic experience also play a very important role. So this is one issue that we do not see eye to eye even though I think China and Israel are getting slightly together，closer to each other.

The other issue relates to Syria. Here it is very tricky and complicated because I said it is the ruler of Syria. And I way we can argue that we don’t care how many Syrians killed every day. And if you watch television，you see that every day at least one hundred or two hundred Syrian are being kill. So this is none of our business. In a way it can be argued that strong is good for us because the border between Israel and Syria was very stable for the past 40 years. But intellectuals and we as Jews are suffered believe that this is not the case. And I think that in international relations，now we face a new situation where people say in the world that a country cannot be as it was even not with any boundaries. Well，in the WWII people could killed，I mean the German could kill Jew，Gypsies or homosexuals or whatever，and there is nothing to do with other countries. Today，after 70 years，the situation is different. And if we look at ex-slavia，we see in fact the international community is getting involved in what is going inside a country. So in spite one cannot say it is none of your business. So people even though they know that Syria can break off to so many states or tribes，and it can be a situation of Lebanonization of Syria. I mean something like Lebanon. We do care. I know that in Chine talking to some researchers here，the idea is that the international community shall not interfere. Let Syrian people，let Syria decide its own fate. Now this is rational. It can be understood. I would not say it is outlandish，but I would say it doesn’t hold water. It doesn’t hold water because eventually the international community does not accept it. And one thing we have to remember is that people do interfere in what and do want to see what is going within a country. And this is a great change in diplomacy.

So and the last thing I want to mention is that the economic cooperation. I just want to mention one thing as an example in China. （China） has bought a huge Israeli company dealing with pesticide. In fact，it bought 60% what they called Makhteshim Agan. And this is perhaps the symbol to what we can expect. So on the whole，my thesis is the following by these I complete. I think that we should have China more involved in international affairs，more involved in the Mid-East crisis. We must get the Chinese to understand our point of view when we bombarded from the Palestinian side，when we feel we are on the urge of destruction or problem. But I also think we should find other fields of collaboration，such as academic，like this gathering today，and such as economic related in industry and may other areas. So I would stop here and I will let you to decide how to work it now. We do the questions now or later after my colleague’s speak. Whatever you decide. Thank you very much.

（语音整理：孟晓艳 初稿整理：李阳）